Episode Forty-Four: War Of The Mind: One Soldier’s Story of PTSD, Self-Medication and Recovery, with Jon Wynn
War Of The Mind: One Soldier’s Story Of PTSD, Self-Medication And Recovery, with Jon Wynn
In this week’s episode, I’m speaking with ex-Military, Fitness and Sobriety Coach, Jon Wynn.
Jon grew up in regional Australia and was exposed to drinking at a young age however he didn’t start abusing alcohol and other drugs until he joined the military.
After receiving a gunshot wound on tour in Afghanistan, he returned home with a sense of invincibility coupled with an insatiable urge to drown out the noise in his head. Struggling with PTSD, Jon felt as though he couldn’t ask for help for fear of stigma and potentially losing his job.
The greatest fight for his life began when Jon left the military and started his long road to recovery. Today, Jon is free from the nightmare of PTSD and is living a fulfilled life clean and sober.
Jon shares his story in the hope that it can help remove the stigma and support other people struggling with mental health conditions.
Some of the topics we cover in this conversation include:
Rehab Intervention – 7:30
Coping Mechanisms – 12:40
Joining the Military – 19:23
The mental impact of being shot in battle – 23:48
Losing your identity – 28:40
Mental health stigmatisation – 33:08
Self-medicating PTSD – 38:05
The fight to live – 42:18
Fitness and recovery – 48:13
You can find Jon using the links below:
Website: https://jonwynnfitnessandsobriety.com/
Instagram: @jonwynnfitnessandsobriety
You can follow Ash and Behind The Smile on IG here: @ashbutterss
If you or someone you know if struggling with addiction, please reach out for support. Some support options include:
• A healthcare professional
• Alcoholics Anonymous
• Lifeline or Beyond Blue (Australia)
• CheckPoint (global)
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READ ON FOR THE TRANSCRIPT BELOW
War Of The Mind: One Soldier’s Story of PTSD, Self-Medication, and Recovery with Jon Wynn
Keywords:
Recovery, PTSD, triggers, cravings, coping mechanisms, alcohol, change, military, fitness, war, drug, addiction, rehab, therapy, approach, process, purpose, goals, support, network, connection, self-esteem, exercise, gratitude, be present, now.
Speakers: Ash Butters + Jonathan Wynn
Ash Butters (00:27.563)
Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of Behind the Smile. Joining us on the show today is Jonathan Wynn.
Jon is a personal trainer, a health and nutrition coach and a father of one. Jon made the decision to get sober in November of 2020 after battling with drug and alcohol addiction as a way to cope with the PTSD he suffered as a result of serving in the military.
Ash Butters (00:57.563)
Truly inspiring and I'm so grateful to have him on the show today. So, without any further delay, dialling in from Mallorca, Spain, I'd love to welcome Jon onto the show. Jon, welcome to the behind the smile. How are you this morning?
Jonathon Wynn (01:10.45)
Great, thanks Ash, thanks for having us on. It's a pleasure to be on here.
Ash Butters (01:18.503)
Yeah, I'm so excited. I was just sharing with you on the top of the show that was actually a good friend of mine who discovered you and insisted that I must get you on to the show. So, thank you. Thank you so much for giving me your time. I'm really excited to dive into your story today. But the first thing I want to ask you is what is an Aussie doing living over in Spain? It sounds amazing.
Jonathon Wynn (01:37.91)
Yeah, it is pretty amazing. It's a bit of a long story. My wife, she's actually Spanish. So, A is Española, so she's Spanish. So that's why we're here. We originally met in Australia and us, yeah, so we met in Byron Bay. It was actually in one of the treatments, rehab, so I was in up there. I'd left there and met her and then we're sort of on and off for quite a few years.
Ash Butterss (01:53.963)
Yeah, I was going to ask.
Jonathon Wynn (02:08.29)
Yeah, when COVID happened, I got stuck in Spain. I was here visiting, and she was actually in Thailand at the time. So, we got split up for about seven, eight months. And I literally got stuck here. So, I couldn't get out of the country, couldn't get back to Australia. So, by the time she got to Spain about 7, 8 months later, we just decided to stay here and make a life. Yeah.
Ash Butterss (02:21.566)
Oh, wow.
Ash Butterss (02:35.124)
Yeah, I mean what a beautiful part of the world to land in. Do you speak much Spanish?
Jonathon Wynn (02:40.83)
So no, not really. I need to improve a lot. It's like an old dog. It's really hard for my brain to get around languages. But one day, I'm hoping I can learn with my daughter, who's about 16 months now.
Ash Butterss (02:52.627)
Yeah.
Ash Butterss (02:57.853)
Wow and she’s bilingual.
Jonathon Wynn (02:58.91)
Oh, she's not really speaking yet. Yeah, she's trying to, but by all reports here, the bilingual kids, they take a little bit longer. Because I speak English and my wife speaks Spanish, so it's a little bit complicated for her. Yeah, yeah.
Ash Butterss (03:03.245)
Okay, just... Yeah.
Ash Butterss (03:11.323)
Yeah, of course, because they're processing. Both, I imagine.
Ash Butterss (03:20.243)
That is incredible. Well, before we dive into your photo that I've asked you to bring along today, Jon, I'd love for our audience to get to know you a little bit better. So, can we start off with you sharing where you're from originally? What does an average day look like for you and what do you do for fun?
Jonathon Wynn (03:38.51)
Okay, so I grew up in New South Wales in a place called Laurieton, which is part of the Camden Haven area. So, geographically, it's 4 hours North of Sydney, so sort of halfway between Sydney and Brisbane, on the Mid-North Coast. So, I grew up there. I was born in Newcastle, so lived there for a few years and then my father was in the fisheries. Fisheries Inspector.
Jonathon Wynn (04:08.55)
About 10, I think it was. And then, I moved to Laurieton, which is my grandparents were from there, my mum's parents and we decided to make that home so that's pretty much where I had my youth and grew up. Yeah, it's a great place for a youngster to grow up. lots of, it's sort of where the coast meets the country, so it's a great, great area.
Ash Butterss (04:25.387)
Mmm.
Ash Butterss (04:37.623)
Yeah, all along the East Coast there is just beautiful. I've got friends in Coffs Harbour and Sawtell and yeah, I've spent a lot of time there myself. It is an amazing part of Australia. If anyone listening hasn't been there, go check it out. Tell me what does an average day look like for you over in Mallorca?
Jonathon Wynn (04:52.15)
So, an average day, so it always starts quite early for me. So, I always like to get my training done in the morning. So, I'm training roughly for my own personal endeavours. So, I train twice a day. So, I'm usually up about 4:30 or 5:00. So I get my first session in. So that's usually a run or something of that effect. Then I'll go into getting my daughter ready for school.
Jonathon Wynn (05:22.29)
Now, she has to travel every two weeks. So, every two weeks I've got my daughter on my own for three to four days, so it gets to juggle quite a bit but usually get her ready for school when my wife starts work. I take her to school and then I've got clients, so I'm a Coach and a Trainer, so I've got online clients as well as face-to-face. So, generally that'll take me through the day until about three o'clock where I can do my second training session.
Jonathon Wynn (05:53.851)
And then, I've got a client at night, or I've got an appointment, or I pick my daughter up and then it's night time routine. But it's pretty much Groundhog Day for me and you know what, I sort of enjoy that. I want the stability. Stability in my life is something which I didn't have for a long time. So, knowing what my work looks like and it's a little bit boring, it can be, but this works for me and just stability here.
Ash Butterss (06:09.484)
Mmm.
Ash Butterss (06:22.123)
Hmm. I love what you said about stability just then. Like, for me, routine has been such a big part of my recovery and forming these really healthy habits that allow me to stay really clear on where I'm headed and where I'm going. And we'll dive into how fitness has shaped your recovery a little bit more into later into the conversation, because I know it's a huge, huge part of what you do to implement your recovery every single day. Jon, I've asked you to bring in a photo today and I'd love to talk about the photo now.
Ash Butterss (06:52.303)
From a time in your life where your insides didn't match your outsides. You are hiding behind a smile and presenting one version of yourself to the outside world, but the truth was your internal world was in turmoil. Can you describe for our listeners the photo that you've chosen, what's happening in the photo and what was life looking like for you at that time?
Jonathon Wynn (07:12.53)
Yeah, so when he asked about the photos, I've lost so many things over the years, right? And I've lost social media accounts. I've just lost a lot of things through addiction. And the photo I picked was the last. It was the point of the last time, so I think it was, second or the last time I entered hospital, and I was trying to put on a bit of a brave face. So, this is when I was in Barcelona at the time. I've been there on my own for a long time.
Jonathon Wynn (07:42.45)
I hit rock bottom one of the last times and my wife actually, she came to Barcelona to sort of find me, to help me. I was trying to get into a rehab because she was in Thailand for quite a long time. We disconnected, she had come back, got me and I was in a really bad way. So, she literally came knocking on the door and then found me broken.
Jonathon Wynn (08:12.59)
She ended up taking me to the hospital. Literally, about half an hour after she came and met me and then I ended up in there, like that. Every time I end up in the hospital, they put me in ICU because I have to detox that heart. It's really dangerous, so it was me trying to smile and trying to be normal, but the inside, it was like if anyone, it's a lot of your listeners will be… chaos, fear, anxiety, the unknown. You think like the world is about to end. So that's what, that stays with me. And if I ever think about picking up, that's the image in my head where I go to and I think, like that taxi ride or those moments where I'm trying to function, but inside, like, it's just, it's this chaos.
Ash Butterss (09:02.105)
Mmm.
Ash Butterss (09:10.549)
Mmm. Were you going with her willingly? Did you want to get help that final time?
Jonathon Wynn (09:13.65)
That time I did, yeah, I reached out. I was, I've hit rock bottom and you know, if anyone has gone through recovery, like you think you hit rock bottom and if you keep on using, you find a new rock bottom and then there's another one and it just keeps going and going. But yeah, that time I reached out for help. A lot of the times I've reached out for help, sometimes it's just taken out of my control. Most times it's for me to stop, I need an intervention of some time.
Ash Butterss (09:28.347)
Yeah.
Ash Butterss (09:31.264)
Yeah.
Jonathon Wynn (09:44.03)
I can't do it on my own. And I don't think anyone can really do it on their own. You've got to have some help of some type. But for me, it's a hospital, a psych ward, or it's some medical intervention because it goes that long, and I have no off switch. Yeah.
Ash Butterss (10:04.843)
Hmm. Oh, I so resonate with what you're saying. I also went into rehab and that's how I got sober. And for me, it was, I had shown myself time and time again that on my own self will, I couldn't stop because every morning I would say to myself, I'm not going to drink again today. And then I would find myself with a drink in my hand by that evening. And just time and time again. And I knew for me, it was like, I needed to be physically removed from the temptation.
Ash Butterss (10:34.943)
The ability to take my will back and then maybe I would stand a chance to actually have what I needed to hear, the recovery, the therapy starts to actually sink in. But as long as I was continuing to drink and drug like there was just no way I was going to get well. So, I totally agree with you. It's not necessarily a look rehab may not be accessible for everyone, but there are so many other avenues that you can lean into where you can get support, so you don't have to do it alone.
Jonathon Wynn (11:02.39)
Yeah, 100%. I work with some people in recovery now and I work in that sector. And it's the one bit of advice I give to people if they're looking to get the recoveries, you need to enter some form of program. If you can do a rehab, that's unreal. Make sure you do it for a while, not the short few week ones. But you need to be surrounded with recovery because there's too much temptation out there. You need some time away from all that stimulus and all that.
Jonathon Wynn (11:32.61)
Those triggers and cravings, like you need to be somewhere safe where you're surrounded by Recovery. It's really the only way I see it. If you go on AA or any meetings like this, it's essentially doing the same thing, right? You need to be around a few more people.
Ash Butterss (11:52.443)
Yeah, yeah, I completely echo that point. I think the community side of things is just so, so powerful and so important. I want to take a step back now to understand a little bit more about who you are as a person and to do that, I'd love to go back to your childhood. Can you describe for me what you were like as a child and were there any instances or occurrences that perhaps shaped the person that you became later on?
Jonathon Wynn (12:19.17)
Yeah, so as a child, I was shy and sensitive. That's how I described myself. I think I've been an addict and alcoholic of some degree all my life and I've always used external things to make myself feel better and it's a coping mechanism, right? And I've done a lot.
Jonathon Wynn (12:49.71)
All of my time, sort of, searching for answers and just trying to get better as a human. So, I always had an issue with using external things.
So, my first addiction would be comfort eating. So that was when I was quite little, and I picked that up actually off Mum. Mum used to do it. So, I grew up in, like,
Jonathon Wynn (13:19.11)
young families probably a little bit differently though. The household was running a bit different to what they are these days, so it’s dysfunctional things.
Yeah, a little bit rough at home. Growing up, dad drank a bit, mom drank a bit. Yeah, so dealing with learning how to deal with the things which are happening.
Jonathon Wynn (13:49.11)
I learnt this when I was young, little. I think that's my siblings as well, yeah. So, it's just coping mechanisms. But I was definitely sensitive. And I think this is really common for people who end up in addicts and alcoholics that we use these things to self-serve. And yeah, it's just we didn't learn how to regulate properly, I guess. And this is just the situation that was at the time. It's not really anywhere to fall.
Ash Butterss (14:19.065)
Hmm.
Jonathon Wynn (14:19.965)
Yeah.
Ash Butterss (14:23.003)
Yeah, I had a similar experience growing up and one of the things I often share is I now understand. Also, having gone through a lot of the work and doing the therapy that my parents did the best they could do with the tools that they had at that point in time. But that doesn't disregard the impact it had on me as a child and the core beliefs that I developed as a result of having grown up in a dysfunctional environment.
Ash Butterss (14:53.043)
And observe things that a child just simply shouldn't see.
Jonathon Wynn (14:56.53)
Yeah, yeah. And that's the thing. Like if you, you know, for me to go back and have your feelings or grudges or anything like this, this doesn't serve me, right? Like what I can do with that is just accept it, in the best they can. And it's up for me, the way I developed. I don't want to pass on those traits and not only traits, the ways of living. Yeah, I don't want.
Ash Butterss (15:25.184)
Yeah, yeah.
Jonathon Wynn (15:26.85)
And pass on what I've learnt to my kids.
Yeah, but you need to understand your story. You need to understand your parent's story, right? And that's how we're shaped. Yeah, someone's going to start that along the line. So, I'm happy I've sort of went through this process.
Ash Butterss (15:49.243)
Oh, it's incredibly powerful to be the one to break the chain and to be the change for the rest of the generations to come. When was the first time you started drinking?
Jonathon Wynn (15:51.693)
Break the chain, yeah.
Jonathon Wynn (15:58.85)
Uh, yeah, so my growing up, my grandparents, they owned a liquor store. So, they had a bottle shop, um, ever since I can remember, like a pretty sure, probably when I was about born, I guess they had that. Um, so I remember drinking, probably about six, five, six. So, at, yeah, at Christmas time, at parties, um, everyone would go visit my grandparents.
Ash Butterss (16:23.823)
Wow.
Jonathon Wynn (16:30.13)
We would have, so it would be 20, 30 family members, and all the cousins and the grandchildren and whatnot. So, we would have bit down one end of the table and all the adults would get one. And we would have our little shandy glasses and we'd get champagne or a stick of rick or don. I think we were drinking. So, all us kids would get one. And it was just part of the culture. It was just part of how we were. Like the parents had the big glasses.
Jonathon Wynn (16:59.752)
I wouldn't say we never overstepped the mark. Like they did, they were always irresponsible. I shouldn't say that. There was.
Ash Butterss (17:02.27)
Mm.
Jonathon Wynn (17:09.71)
Yeah, I give my child alcohol, I definitely won't. But it was just how it was back then, yeah? It was just the kids can have a little bit. It's just different times, I guess.
Ash Butterss (17:21.843)
Yeah.
Ash Butterss (17:24.623)
Mmm, absolutely. And when did it start becoming a problem for you? Was it from an early age?
Jonathon Wynn (17:30.19)
Um, no, so, uh, what happened was, uh, when I was about 10, my family ended up moving up to where my grandparents were, my mom and dad took over the liquor store. So, they were now, uh, running this bottle shop. Um, so I didn't actually, I wouldn't say I used alcohol to, um, to the purpose of getting intoxicated or drunk until I think it would be.
Jonathon Wynn (18:00.65)
So that 12, 13, it's quite, yeah, it's young. So that was when I first used alcohol for that reason. And to have used it ongoingly, I would say probably from that 14 was pretty normal. And that was probably once a month, once maybe once a fortnight. And at that time in error, like everyone,
Ash Butterss (18:02.803)
Yeah, which is still, yeah, really young.
Jonathon Wynn (18:30.19)
all kids were doing this. It was just like where I was from. It was just what we did. You go to parties; the kids were given a six pack between two people and it's just like it was just how it was.
Ash Butterss (18:39.254)
Mm.
Ash Butterss (18:48.283)
Yeah, right, far out. Okay, so you started drinking from an incredibly young age and you were surrounded in an environment where it was socially acceptable. Again, I can really, really relate to that.
Ash Butterss (19:02.703)
What made you want to join the military?
Jonathon Wynn (19:04.75)
So, I described the area I grew up in as smallish, sort of closed off. Like to go to Sydney was a big thing, right? So, it was a small sort of country town feel. Most of my mates growing up, they left school, got apprenticeships and they all stayed local. No one really moved away. I didn't finish high school.
Ash Butterss (19:20.064)
Okay.
Jonathon Wynn (19:34.25)
I was always sort of a sportsman growing up and I got injured doing my sport of athletics. I was a java and thrower. I couldn't pursue that, so I tried to continue playing. I went back to rugby league, continued playing that, didn't get picked up by any clubs and then I, because I hadn't finished school, so I didn't go to Uni. I didn't start an apprenticeship. I got to about 20,
Jonathon Wynn (20:04.25)
And I was probably at 19 and realised I needed to make a change. I needed to head somewhere in my life. At the time, my brother was actually, he tried to join the military and he wasn't successful. I remember finding one of his magazines and it was a hard in there about a program for the military. It was a Special Forces Direct Entry Program.
Jonathon Wynn (20:34.31)
I wanted to join the military but didn't want to go conventional forces, they wanted to go special forces. So, I looked up the program and end up applying for it. It was what I wanted to go after. And what this gave me was, it got me out of the area I grew up in. I knew if I was successful, I was going to be able to see the world. I was going to be able to go to war, because this is when Afghanistan had sort of first kicked off after 9-11.
Jonathon Wynn (21:05.151)
So, it was a way for me to do something at an elite level, fitness wise, and get out of the area and sort of become a man.
Ash Butterss (21:19.443)
Hmm.
Ash Butterss (21:22.563)
Mm. So you were 22 when you first went to war, weren't you? What sort of impact did that have on you?
Jonathon Wynn (21:29.35)
At the time, it was exciting. Like, I joined Hilltree when I was 20, turned 21st at basic training and when we got fast tracked all the way through, once I was successful and become a commando, went over 22. A bit green, I think you'd call it, and grew up fast. If I could do my time again, maybe going a little bit older would have, would help me a little bit,
Jonathon Wynn (21:58.67)
like the past is the past but it was a big learning experience. The best way for me to describe it is I grew up fast. And probably picked up some, and it sort of enhanced my coping mechanisms to be able to shut off. I could get, do work, I could do things and not be too affected.
Ash Butterss (21:59.526)
Mmm.
Jonathon Wynn (22:29.131)
Not a great trait to go into the rest of your life with being out of shut off from things. Yeah.
Ash Butterss (22:35.971)
Mmm.
Ash Butterss (22:39.183)
I suppose that survival mechanism that you developed as a child, you were able to then implement in that environment to keep yourself protected.
Jonathon Wynn (22:48.83)
Yep, they're 100%. And now I think this, the military attracts people like sort of myself.
Yeah, yeah. And it's funny, you're bringing that up. Like, going through a lot of therapy now is sort of, when I was growing up, I wanted to be a hero. I wanted to be a protector. And I was just by stuff which was happening at home and whatnot. Like it's funny how we ended up following those footsteps.
Jonathon Wynn (23:18.91)
But I realize it now after doing work like, it was just that - it attracted me.
Ash Butterss (23:26.883)
I'm really curious to know where, what number do you fall in terms of your brothers and sisters, your siblings? How are you the eldest?
Jonathon Wynn (23:33.152)
I'm on the second over so I've got an older brother, there's me and two sisters and we're all pretty much a year apart.
Ash Butterss (23:43.163)
I only ask because I, you know, with internal family systems and you look at the different lines of where people fall with their siblings, they often form different roles and generally, the older you are, the more you take on that hero role. So that's why I was curious about that one. Okay, so I've heard you share about an incident where you were shot in the back and
Jonathon Wynn (23:59.33)
Yeah, interesting, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Ash Butterss (24:12.484)
you said at the time talking about this that it made you feel invincible. Can you tell me more about that?
Jonathon Wynn (24:18.53)
Yeah, so this is on my first tour of Afghanistan. It was actually one of my first contacts or ticks or gunfights for lack of a better term. So it happened, we were in a, you know, engagement with the enemy. This incident happened. It scared me quite a bit. At the time, like, it's all instinctively and you react, and I would carry down my drills.
Jonathon Wynn (24:50.211)
It did not shock me a little bit, but I could deal with it. I remember after the incident, a teammate taking on my kid off me and checking me for where it actually shocked me, but it got me in the plate. So, it was about an inch below the top of my plate. So, it's lucky it wasn't that little bit higher, but I thought at the time it had penetrated. So, in the middle of summer, on my water bottles in the back,
Jonathon Wynn (25:18.49)
running down and I thought it was blood, yes. So, everyone, my teammates next to me, thought I'd been shot too. Like, that's how close it obviously was. So, we sort of dealt with that situation. I remember that night sleeping. So, we're out probably a few weeks doing a job. And I remember waking up and hearing gunshot.
Ash Butterss (25:21.684)
Oh, wow.
Jonathon Wynn (25:48.59)
And I thought it happened again. I remember thinking that's like, scarred me in my brain. That's like, a PTSD. Yeah, so yeah. This wasn't the first time this has happened as well. Yeah, so this happened for other things, but I just, that was a moment when like this is going to affect me. Like, that's it. Somehow scarred into my memory like, into my system.
Ash Butterss (26:01.374)
Mmm.
Ash Butterss (26:17.437)
Yeah.
Jonathon Wynn (26:18.63)
All that stuff is embedded in us. It's hard for everybody to process it.
Ash Butterss (26:23.405)
Hmm
Ash Butterss (26:26.923)
And to feel a sense of invincibility is like probably the worst thing an addict could feel.
Jonathon Wynn (26:34.69)
Yep, so what after that, I remember not so much in that tour, but when I would come back and I would have, so the way it sorts of worked is I'd go on a rotation, which could be four or five months. I'd go back to Australia, I would have leave, so that would be anywhere from month to two, three months, and then I'd start lead up training again to do it. So, I went back four years in a row.
Ash Butterss (27:03.823)
Wow.
Jonathon Wynn (27:06.01)
Probably too much. If I could change anything again, I'd give it a bit of space and I think my understanding is now they sort of change that. The sky is going back too soon too often, and you need decompression. You need time back in the real world because it's just such high stress and high risk. So, what would happen is, I'd go back and then I'd have these moments of leave and I played hard, too. So, I went just as hard and did risky behaviour and pushed the limits in my own time and that's when invincibility, sort of stepped in and the drinking, the drug use. And then, just putting myself in situations which were dangerous. And like, the way I seen it was I knew I was going back to war.
Ash Butterss (27:47.285)
Mm. Yeah.
Jonathon Wynn (28:04.65)
If I had fun, if I was doing these dangerous things in my off time, like in my next tour, there's a possibility I could get shot or I could die on those tours, because I've been that close to really just knocking on the door. So, this happened year in, year out, and that's just how it was. Like, eventually I'm running the gauntlet going back so much, I could get whacked, so what I'm going to say, I'll go out.
Ash Butterss (28:34.163)
Yeah, I guess you're comparing it and you're thinking, well, this is less dangerous than what I'm putting myself in when I'm heading back on tour.
Jonathon Wynn (28:40.373)
So that's the invincibility, which is, that I was just feeding an ego. I was feeding just it. Yeah, it's like, it's my ego, I guess.
Ash Butterss (28:53.486)
Mm, mm. So, what happened then when you finally left the military?
Jonathon Wynn (28:57.75)
Yes, so leaving the military, it was pretty hard. It was a bit earlier than I planned, but leaving the military, it affected me a lot. I didn't think it would have affected me so much. I was lucky enough that I went into contracting. That's pretty restaurant away. So, I went working for an American company, and then I worked for an Australian company to the embassy in Afghanistan. So, I didn't have much gap in between, but that helped it. But looking back, I lost a lot of my support network. I lost a lot of my brotherhood, my comrades. The guys I grew up with, the guys I went to war with ever since I was, I'd say like, in 22. Going to war to become a man with a lot of these guys and sort of have a part way. But I still have seen a lot of these guys in the contracting world but just a little bit differently outside the military. So, in reflection, yeah, I lost my support network.
Ash Butterss (30:19.423)
Hmm. Imagine to an extent, your identity.
Jonathon Wynn (30:20.93)
Yeah, yeah. Like at that time, you know, like I grew up as a bit of a sportsman. I didn't really have a profession. Like, my profession was in the military. That was how I went from a boy to a man. So, I was Jon “The Commander”. Yeah, that was who I was at that time. Lots changed now, but that sort of was my identity. Yeah.
Ash Butterss (30:47.364)
You mentioned that your exit was earlier than planned. Why was that?
Jonathon Wynn (30:51.53)
Ah, so I failed a drug test. Yeah, yeah.
Ash Butterss (30:58.183)
So, I was going to ask, do they drug test you in?
Jonathon Wynn (31:00.01)
Yeah, they do. Yeah, yeah. So, in this feeling of sort of invincibility, this, just the way my lifestyle was, the way I, I seen it was, you know, I was going to war, I come back, I had time off, I go back to war, I was doing everything they asked. I would say I was, you know, I was a good soldier, you know, like I got a medal on one of my tours, I was doing everything it was asked for,
Ash Butterss (31:30.264)
Hmm.
Jonathon Wynn (31:30.57)
and for this incident to happen. If the way I was going, eventually it could have happened. It did happen, and it is what it is. But they dealt with me the way they sort of do with everyone else. They don't accept it. So, it is what it is. I think now, my understanding is, they're looking at it a little bit differently because they're like, we're sending these young guys to war.
Jonathon Wynn (32:00.11)
We're asking him to do all this stuff like, these guys. And there's a lot of guys when I was leaving similar situations, so they're sort of looking at it like, you know, but I don't know if they'll take some responsibility in this. But ultimately, it's where we do it. It's our choice. That’s the young guy who's making good money, go on to war risking it all. It's probably going to have some vices, right?
Ash Butterss (32:28.823)
Yeah, yeah exactly. Well, where is he blowing off steam? And I guess that also highlights the reality of addiction. Like, we start to lose the things that are most important to us as the disease progresses.
Jonathon Wynn (32:29.91)
Yeah. Yeah.
Jonathon Wynn (32:43.11)
Yep, yeah, it's progressive. Until you're in it, you don't really understand how progressive it is. And you look back and you're like, OK, this is where the wheels started to fall off. And like, that's a long time ago. And then, it's just like, you can just track it along the way, all the losses. And for me, there's so much. Every bad decision I've made has been under the influence. And it has cost me jobs.
Ash Butterss (33:11.464)
Hmm.
Jonathon Wynn (33:13.45)
All my jobs, it cost friendships, it's cost a shitload of money, but time. Time I can't get back.
Ash Butterss (33:21.843)
Hmm. Yeah, it really does. It takes away everything. How long after you left the military were you diagnosed with PTSD?
Jonathon Wynn (33:31.61)
So, it should have been picked up in the military and it sort of, was. So, what happens is, in sort of my era, when I was going back, you didn't talk about the issues because one, it's sort of, there's a stigma, you thought it made you appear weak, I guess. And two, it stopped you. If you had an issue, you wouldn't be able to go back on another tour. And because I enjoyed what I did, it paid really well. I just, I liked it. I liked going to the war. I was more, I felt more at home over at war than I did in Australia. So, I wanted to keep going back but you never talked about this stuff. And this is really common. So it wasn't, I'd say. Like, I started sessions not long after that. I didn't really get any help for it until I think, it was around I did my first rehab. So, that was about 2015 or 16. So, that's two years. After I left the military is when I started to actually talk about it and actually get some help and actually see a doctor about it and partly that is like, I went contracting straight away. So, I stay within the support network. The guys you work with, you go contracting. If you're still doing something which is like what you used to do, you're sort of brushing over it, so you're just suppressing it, you can tell the handler, but when you remove those things and you go back to yourself, there's that shit that's still there. And it's like, okay, you've got to process this at some point. So, the military, they try it when you transition,
Ash Butterss (35:24.943)
Mm. Hmm.
Jonathon Wynn (35:31.41)
What I noticed with a lot of my mates and it's coming out later on in life. A lot of guys are feeding this with alcohol and drugs and it's causing a big problem. It's causing a huge problem.
Ash Butterss (35:32.554)
Mm.
Ash Butterss (35:46.863)
Yeah, it just blows my mind that we have all of this information around mental health and addiction and in my firm belief and opinion, we need to be talking about these things to remove the stigma. It's the only way we're going to break through this and yet we have these industries and these stuff, which pushes it further and further in like, underground? Like you weren't there all that long ago. Really? And that was your experience.
Jonathon Wynn (36:17.013)
Yeah.
Jonathon Wynn (36:27.13)
Yeah, so like, in the military, the alcohol use is like, it's “everyone knows about it”. Yeah. But it's, it's, it's sort of accepted, right? Drug use is not so much because it's, it is what it is. It's drugs. It's supposed to be illegal, but it's really prevalent, right? But yeah, if you, if you like come out and identify this like, there's a lot of the alcoholics, right?
Ash Butterss (36:49.744)
Hmm.
Jonathon Wynn (36:57.05)
It's just nothing, you can get away with it, right? You get sent home from work. Like, it's just the way it is, yeah. But I think now it's definitely changing, but it has to because, you know, I think it was in quarry not too long ago, and they looked at suicide, and they looked at alcohol abuse disorder used in the military. And they're like, these soldiers are like six times more likely than the average person to commit suicide use alcohol. Don't quote me on those numbers, but it's something high. Like this and they're like, that's why they're so much higher. We need to be looking at this and addressing this year. So, I believe there's different strategies in different processes now where people can come out and say, look, I've got a problem. I don't know if people are doing this. Definitely when I was there, no one did it. No one. You didn't put your hand up because you just didn't want to.
Ash Butterss (37:40.428)
Yeah.
Jonathon Wynn (37:57.619)
Yeah.
Ash Butterss (38:00.443)
Yeah, yeah, of course, I totally get it. It's just not a safe space to be able to share that stuff and expect to number one, be treated the same way and number two, keep your job.
Jonathon Wynn (38:08.25)
Yeah, yeah, that's right. You bring this stuff up and you get removed from your team. You get put somewhere, you get like, you know, like you don't want that here. Like, an assist these hierarchies and whatnot. It is what it is.
Ash Butterss (38:19.143)
Hmm.
Ash Butterss (38:25.204)
Jon, are you okay to talk a little bit about the PTSD? I'd really be interested to know what some of the symptoms were that you were experiencing and how you used alcohol as a coping mechanism, which I know you've spoken about before, but what was it exactly that you were trying to mask or to cope with?
Jonathon Wynn (38:45.37)
Yeah, so firstly, I think I've always been like an alcoholic to Ida Carran. I think I've always had those traits. I would never drag for like two days in a row or did drugs until the military. And then after my first tour, that's when the wheels come off. So really, I remember coming back with situations, I guess, like to deal with life and life's terms. So, like waking up in sort of hearing that gunshot or another one was hearing RPGs, I'd wake up and hear that stuff all the time. But really like this sort of in the sort of recovery world, they say discontent, which means, you know, just not something wrong, right? This is what I identified as, wasn't at peace. Sent me back to war and I wasn't at peace, but the PSD was, it can manifest in a lot of different ways is what I've learned. One of them was, I just didn't want to deal with life, like life was stressful and it wasn't. Like war was stressful in that city and traffic going to work and you know.
Ash Butterss (40:08.009)
Mmm. Mmm.
Jonathon Wynn (40:15.25)
You know, It's another one. Cars backfiring, stuff like this. This is a big thing where it would really rattle me now. Okay. Yeah, like it's I've got some time up and up My nervous system has calmed down. That was another one of those days like, your nervous system is so high. It's switched on like, it's always in threat, it's always in fear. It's always, yeah. It's just always in that and I did that for 4 years back-to-back contracting.
Ash Butterss (40:39.604)
Yeah, fight or flight.
Jonathon Wynn (40:45.29)
So, I remember seeing when I started working for a doctor as a psychiatrist, he's like, since you were 22, you first went, he goes, your poor brain has never experienced like peace. It's just always been preparing for war, going to war. And then you're off time, you're punishing yourself with alcohol, drugs, and your lifestyle. He goes, like, you've got 10 years of damage to yourself. Yeah. Yeah.
Ash Butterss (41:07.806)
Yeah.
Ash Butterss (41:13.743)
Yeah, it's like your body never would have been able to move into that parasympathetic nervous system state where you just have that natural rest and digest, and you can repair and recuperate before you move into another incident where you need to respond and react. That would be so exhausting.
Jonathon Wynn (41:21.491)
Yeah.
Jonathon Wynn (41:29.93)
Yeah, I was really high strung. So, alcohol helped with this. Yeah, I remember, I had a partner, a girlfriend from when I was like 16 to 26. And so, she went through all my military in that. And I remember her, I think it was my second tour. And she's, we had the conversation where she said, you need to get help. All right, you're getting the wheels have fallen off like you've like you're abusing alcohol.
Ash Butterss (41:37.194)
Mmm, mmm, mmm.
Jonathon Wynn (41:59.951)
like you need to get help and I refused to I wouldn't admit it so we sort of went through and we split up and that was for the best at the time but I was in denial I wouldn't accept it you know like I was been in a war like I was a man I don't have a problem but there was a huge problem a huge problem and everyone could see it I had mates who had
Ash Butterss (42:23.205)
Mmm. Mmm. Mmm.
Jonathon Wynn (42:28.45)
except they tried to calm me down so I just wouldn't have it.
Ash Butterss (42:35.123)
Yeah. Your journey to recovery is, it's certainly not linear and you really have fought to get Recovery. You know, it includes 15 visits to rehab, being sectioned in hospital. Can you tell me a bit more about that cycle of addiction, of trying to get recovered because again, people will be listening, who are perhaps on a similar journey and they might be thinking, it's never going to work for me. What are some of the things with Addiction, things that were going through your mind as well and what did you do to just stay on this path and to keep trying?
Jonathon Wynn (43:14.13)
So, I remember, I did my first rehab. I left early because I just didn't think I had a problem and then probably what I do is, I'd go to rehab, I'd leave and then, I would last 1 to 3 to 4 months of sober time and then I would fall off again. And then, it would take me, my relapses could last 3 to 6 to 12 months-long through the process again. So essentially, what I was doing, I was repeating my same, sort of, “partner” behaviour is what I was like, going to war, working hard for a bit, and then come back, the wheels fall off, I get on it. Okay, I'm ready to go again, I'll try it again. So, what I've looked at to go through all my therapies, like I'm repeating the same shit over and over. I'm doing the same things, expecting the same results. So, what happened was each relapse, rehab. I would come out due to clean time and then, relapse. And then I just kept worse, so something worse would happen, something bad would happen. I'd spend more money, and this kept repeating and repeating until it I had a car accident. I was driving a mate's car. I rolled it on the highway. It's lucky. I'm really lucky I didn't hit anyone. Dealt with that, lost my license for 5 years.
Jonathon Wynn (44:43.75)
Another, sort of incident, in Melbourne, where I smashed a window like, this is all things under the influence. So, each time I entered rehab, it was, I'd hit rock bottom. I need to get better and then what would happen is, I would come out and I would forget what I've been through, so part of me knew. Yeah, part of me knew like, in rehab is where I need to go to DTOMS to get clean to get better. I want and then I'd come out and I'd forget, and then I'd forget all the pain, the heartache. And like, I've even got scars on me from self-harming right, and I can look at them daily you know this this tattoo I've got covers up a lot of the ones and like, that was still not enough to stop me. Looking at no license, criminal charges like scars, still just go back to using this, thinking it wasn't that bad.
Jonathon Wynn (45:43.75)
Harder than I knew I wanted to get better. It took me 15 times, 13 in Australia and then 2 times here in Spain. Eventually, it just clicked. I just had enough. That sort of saying, sick and tired of being sick and tired. I get this asked a lot. What happened this time? Why after the 15th? Did it work? The answer to that is, I lost my mind.
Ash Butterss (46:02.925)
Mm-hmm.
Jonathon Wynn (46:16.932)
I didn't have a grasp on reality, and it really shook me around. I was handcuffed in a hospital, like I was into complete delirium, and I literally went insane and like, I've been in psychosis quite a few times from ethnic.
Jonathon Wynn (46:44.13)
And what I did, this “last time” compared to every other time is, I actually went into a program once I left the rehab. I've never done that. So, I've always been stubborn and said, I can do this on my own. It was, as soon as I went to an aftercare program, and I've worked with a Therapist every week. And it's part of the reason we moved to Mallorca. This is in Barcelona. I come to Mallorca and work with this therapist and been with him 2 and a bit more years. And now, I do some work with him.
Ash Butterss (46:54.443)
Hmm. I don't need them.
Jonathon Wynn (47:14.01)
Other clients as well in Recovery. So, I committed to a program of abstinence and sobriety, and I surround myself with people who are in recovery as well. And I'm in a support group and that's all that I did differently. Yeah, from this, from all the times before till now. And it was like since 2016 for my first rehab, it took me that long to surrender. Literally.
Ash Butterss (47:29.323)
Mm, mm.
Ash Butterss (47:44.685)
It goes back to that point that we were talking about earlier on in the show, wasn't it? About connection? Like, it really is the secret source.
Jonathon Wynn (47:51.51)
Yeah, yeah, it literally is like and the connection with the right people. Uh, I would leave when I would leave rehabs. I would go. My connections were back with my old buddies, the ones who were drinking and using with me, like that. That's not the connections you want. You need good connections, who are on the path that you want to be on. Yeah, so you go to a like, an A or an NA meeting and you like, you hear someone speak and you're like, I want what he has. Yeah, you need to be around those people.
Ash Butterss (47:57.883)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. That's exactly right. Surround yourself with strength, I often say.
Jonathon Wynn (48:21.86)
Yeah
Jonathon Wynn (48:25.73)
Yeah, yeah, strengthen others definitely.
Ash Butterss (48:29.243)
Yeah, yeah, it's really powerful. What role has fitness played in your recovery?
Jonathon Wynn (48:34.51)
It's a plate of huge role. It's, yeah. It's, I, like, my understanding, like, in what I've learned in recovery is you need to be, you need to be able to be strong without anything, right? So, when you get to recovery, you remove everything from you, and you have to be at ease with yourself and sit with yourself. So, I, we work with my Therapist. We didn't want to remove everything in my program because it's been such an important part of my life. Through a young stature in the military and playing footy and all these things, so we kept. It was a pretty integral part. Other people in the program had their exercise removed because it's a way to cope, right. You can abuse it as well.
Ash Butterss (49:18.144)
Mm.
Ash Butterss (49:25.163)
Well, interestingly, the rehab I went to, we weren't allowed to exercise. We weren't allowed to elevate our heart rates at all.
Jonathon Wynn (49:30.81)
Yeah, so I've been to so many different rehabs. They've got different approaches, and I, you know, I respect whatever program they choose and whatever. They make the decisions based on the past experience in that part. What we worked out is that we can't remove that, it's an important part. So, I sort of, well, I didn't remove it and I proved a way to incorporate it where it's, it's really important that you don't do exercise for the EGAR, you don't use it for vanity, like this is not to look better, this is to feel better. And that's the approach we used. So, it was to get stronger mentally, to physically, to balance hormones, to improve mobility. It was a different approach. Like I wasn't allowed to go, I wanted to pursue some boxing and things like this. We weren't allowed to do that. I was allowed to wrestle, but I wasn't allowed to kick or strike. So, things like this, we changed.
Ash Butterss (50:07.585)
Mm.
Jonathon Wynn (50:31.27)
And it worked. It's a bit more aggressive and it's a bit more... The theory was that it would react a little bit more on the aggressiveness and adrenaline. And we didn't want to do that. We didn't want to raise the stress hormones too much. So, the cortisol.
Ash Butterss (50:33.068)
I'm really curious. Why was that?
Ash Butterss (50:52.504)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Ash Butterss (50:59.043)
Yeah, okay. Mm-mm.
Jonathon Wynn (51:00.91)
become a cortisol junkie now and so it was just to play it down a bit. Wrestling was more technical and a bit slower, so that was the reason. So, no high intensity exercises are what I should say, and that's the sort of approach I use when I train clients now and we cover these, but don't do a high intensity. That's later on, once we've balanced you out.
Ash Butterss (51:04.586)
Yeah.
Ash Butterss (51:15.57)
Hmm.
Ash Butterss (51:23.623)
Mm-mm, such great advice. What would you say to someone because I know, I'll speak for myself. You can put down drugs and alcohol and then you search for other things to give you the same effect. And I've used all sorts of things to get out of myself when I'm in a moment of discomfort or unease. And I know exercise can be that for a lot of people. But I've always, it has been drilled into me. Taught that you must put your recovery first because if you don't put that first, you won't have anything else anyway. What's your theory on all of that? And if somebody's trying to get sober but they're wanting to prioritize the gym or running or things like that, what would your advice be around that?
Jonathon Wynn (52:11.21)
So as long as your approach and your mindset are in the right space, so what I've seen is people enter a recovery and they all come this is a common where they commit to the gym. So, they go into the gym once, two times a day and they go to the weight section and they're in front of the mirrors and they're doing exercising to look a certain way, right? That's the wrong approach. So, what I teach people is like, you know, we still lift weights, and we still do these things, to improve how we feel. So, like we're not squatting to get muscular legs, we're squatting to improve our testosterone for a guy, for a female. We're squatting to get stronger. We're not doing it for aesthetic purposes. So, if you can change the approach and how you, the perspective of it, I think you can apply it correctly and not over stimulating the body. But to put the recovery first is
Ash Butterss (52:55.606)
Mm.
Jonathon Wynn (53:11.75)
Like if you follow me on Instagram and that is win the morning. Yeah. So, my last name is Wynn. So, every morning I have done it for like 6, 8 months now, something like this. I tell everyone, I do a little pos,t a little story, and win the morning. Yeah. So, I get up, I do exercise. That's to me, you can go for a run, you can do weights, you can do whatever, but set yourself up for the day. Yeah. It makes you feel good. It gives you a bit of a kick, gets you out of bed early.
Ash Butterss (53:37.391)
Mmm.
Jonathon Wynn (53:41.17)
It allows you to win that first part of the day to set you up for the rest of the day. So, you know, like, if you're going to, if you've only got one hour window and you've got a recovery meeting or go to the gym, do your recovery meeting. Yeah. But if you, if you're seriously there, you can always find time. Yeah. You can always find time.
Ash Butterss (53:47.244)
Hmm.
Ash Butterss (54:02.023)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's awesome advice. Thank you for sharing. There's one other thing I've heard you talk about around what fitness gives you.
And you've said that,
Fitness gives you a sense of purpose and it makes you a better person.
I'd love you to elaborate on that.
Jonathon Wynn (54:17.11)
Yeah, so for me, having goals is a big part of my life. And that's what I didn't have since I left the military. I didn't know where I wanted to head. I didn't know what I wanted to do. So, sense of purpose is, okay, like, for example, for now, when I, the first sort of 18 months in recovery, I was doing fitness to feel good, to get up, to do something.
Jonathon Wynn (54:47.21)
And then I found a sport which I do now with hyrox and I committed to giving it a go. And so, I had a goal, I wanted to compete in one. So, what that does is I've got to work backwards, I've got to get good at this sport. So, it's got the running component, it's got strength, it's got conditioning. So, I'm actually working towards something. And the way I see fitness is it's not linear. So, I can always get stronger. I can always get more flexible.
Jonathon Wynn (55:17.51)
I can always get faster. I can always jump higher. There are so many different aspects of it. And as long as I'm just improving one of those, I don't have to improve all of them, but improve one of them, it gives me a sense of I'm moving forward, like I'm bettering myself on becoming a better version of myself. And as long as I don't try to take off too much too soon, and this is where another thing for addicts and alcoholics is delayed gratification.
Jonathon Wynn (55:47.09)
stuff, fitness takes time to develop. It's not done overnight, so the constant grind of day after day, week after week, month after month, it's compounds. So, you're not going to feel a bit better straight away, but it's months and months of hard work and it's about the journey. And just getting better slowly, not fast, and then just stacking up those wins over a long time. So, for me, it's having a goal, starting work towards it, knowing you're getting.
Ash Butterss (55:51.566)
Hmm.
Jonathon Wynn (56:17.571)
have objective data, have subjective data, and just keep moving forward.
Ash Butterss (56:26.323)
And for addicts or alcoholics that come into recovery, like, you know, our egos are so high, our self-esteem is so low. This is such an amazing way to start rebuilding that self-esteem.
Jonathon Wynn (56:37.53)
Yeah, yeah, it's like if you literally like in early recovery, I had a weekly schedule. So, I'd write it out. I knew exactly what I had to do each day. And I had my exercise I had to do there and crossing it off. It's a feeling of like accomplishment. And I know I'm doing that. So, you know, self-esteem is about doing estimable things. So, in, in addiction, we're not proud of ourselves. We're doing shit things where we really dislike our behavior and who we are. So, to do things which are good for you, which you know you do the right thing, and you can keep your chin up and you're proud of what you do, that's feeding yourself self-esteem. It's not the ego here, like you're doing the steam, all things and that's the way I teach the people is do things which you know are good and proper and you will feel better naturally.
Ash Butterss (57:32.923)
Hmm, absolutely. I love that. Jon, I've got one final question that I would love to finish on today. Now that question is, what are your three non-negotiables that allow you to live a life today that is happy, joyous, and free?
Jonathon Wynn (57:49.33)
So obviously the one we talked about is exercise. So daily exercise, that's number one on my list. I always take that off in the morning. Number two is gratitude. This is a big one. Being grateful and understanding where I've come from and sort of hand in hand with that is, I say this a lot in recovery is the serenity prayer. So, if you're in recovery, you know what this is. So, they sort of, for me, go hand in hand.
Ash Butterss (57:54.208)
Yep.
Ash Butterss (58:05.164)
Hmm.
Jonathon Wynn (58:20.25)
And the third one is to remember it's going to, like literally this is what I'll say to myself, it's going to be okay. Like it's literally the day sometimes can get to me, and I can sort of lose perspective and lose sort of myself and I can get caught up in situations at home with work. But as long as I know it's going to be okay and like it's literally a day at a time.
Ash Butterss (58:31.837)
Mm.
Jonathon Wynn (58:49.19)
Very cliche and it is very recovery-based, but it's going to be alright. As long as I don't pick up, it's going to be okay.
Ash Butterss (59:01.283)
Yeah, that's exactly right.
My dad, who's also in recovery, talks about like, keep your hands where you can see them. You know, just like be present, be exactly where you are, and it is all going to be okay.
Jonathon Wynn (59:11.89)
Yeah, it is. It is like, as long as we don't pick up, this, a lot of fear about the future, you know, and a lot of regret and depression, thinking about the past and like, really like, you are where your hands are. And like, for a long time, I didn't even understand what that meant. But once you're in recovery, you really understand what being present is all we have. One foot in the future, one foot in the past, you're shitting all over the now.
Ash Butterss (59:16.109)
Mm-hmm.
Ash Butterss (59:33.465)
Yeah.
Jonathon Wynn (59:42.352)
Yeah
Ash Butterss (59:42.443)
I love that. It's the best. It's one of my favorites. Oh, Jon. Thank you so much. I'm sure I'm going to have so many listeners wanting to hit you up and find out more about you. Where can they go?
Jonathon Wynn (59:57.25)
Yeah, so I'm quite active on Instagram. So, I've got a mix of sort of followers there, which is what the sport I do, high rocks, and then a big following in people recoveries. And that's because, I guess, I'm so open now about recovery and trying to send the message that it's possible. So, I'm @jonwynnfitnessandsobriety social media on Instagram.
I don't really use Facebook that much, but I've also got a web page, jonwynnfitnessandsobriety.com. And on there, you can also see like, I've got a story you can see, but mainly on Instagram, I'm quite active on. Yeah, that's what I've got time for.
Ash Butterss (01:00:29.883)
Hmm, yeah, it's great.
Ash Butterss (01:00:37.143)
Awesome. I'll make sure that I pop all of that information in the episode show notes.
Jon, we say here on
Behind the Smile
that when we recover loudly, no one needs to suffer in silence.
So, thank you for being so vocal with your story and for giving us your time today.
Jonathon Wynn (01:00:52.773)
I'm very happy to be here and send the message that it is possible.
Jonathon Wynn (01:00:58.55)
Thanks.
Ash Butterss (01:00:58.743)
Thanks, Jon.